EP45 | Redefining Hard Things with Mark Drager

Mark Drager is a pro-conversationalist and host of the YouTube show, We Do Hard Things. Having spent over 15 years as a brand strategist and the founder of a creative production agency, somewhere along the way he discovered the secret formula for creating an extraordinary life.Today, Mark’s mission is to help the truly ambitious and creative realize that happiness only comes from pursuing their passions at all costs.

Learn more about Mark:  

• Mark's YouTube Channel
• Mark's LinkedIn
• Mark's Instagram
• Mark’s TikTok
• Mark’s Podcast
• Mark’s Agency

Find out more about The Fully Expressed Leader Workshop. Visit www.createpurpose.net/workshop to find out more and unlock your potential as a leader!

Episode resources:

• Create Purpose Website 

• Join Zach’s Workshop

• Person: Steven Pressfield
• Book: The Subtle Art of Not Giving a F*** by Mark Manson
• Book: The Top Five Regrets of the Dying by Bronnie Ware
• Book: Personality isn’t Permanent by Benjamin Hardy
• Book: Psycho-Cybernetics by Maxwell Maltz

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Mark Drager: And it was only when I decided that I was gonna let go of everything and burn it all to the ground, that I felt free enough to have the space to realize there's some of this I still love. There's some of these things that I'm really, really good at.

Zach Arend: Well, welcome back and or welcome to the Create Purpose Podcast. I'm here with Mark Drager. He's a brand and position expert, podcaster, storyteller, owner of PTO Media. He shared stages and hosted conversations with Tom and Lisa biu, Anthony Trucks, Mel Abraham, Evan Carma, Michael, and and a lot of others. And his ultimate purpose is to help others crush the fear and doubt that's keeping them from building an extraordinary.

So, Mark, thanks for coming on the show. I've, I wanna dig into like, that purpose statement is powerful. I love it. So let's start with your story a little bit. Why are you so passionate about this?

Mark Drager: every one of us, whether you're an entrepreneur or an artist, if you're an author, if you're a creator, if you, if you're a spouse, if you're a parent, any, anybody who creates anything does it for selfish reasons, don't we? We do it because frankly, we wish someone else could come along and do it for us, or we see that there's a gap that we wanna fill.

And so I learned this thing a long time ago from some really successful authors that I met along the way, and they said, If you ever wanna know what an author was going through two or three years ago, just look at the book they're talking about right now. Right? Cause whatever book they're promoting or releasing or talking about is in fact what they had to work through two or three years ago.

Cause that's how long it takes to write a book. And so if you look at that statement that I wanna help crush the fear and doubt that's holding us back, that's keeping us from an extraordinary life. What do you think I want, I want an extraordinary life. I, I want to be extraordinary. And, and I used to feel guilty or selfish for that reason.

But no, like, you know what I. I, I like feeling like what I do matters, don't you? And I like being really good at something and valued for what I do, don't you? And I wanna feel like whatever my version of of life is that, that I'm living up to my potential. And it's unique and it's different and exciting, like don't you?

And yet I have so much fear. I have so much doubt. I know that this uncertainty slows me down. I know that it holds me back, cuz. It's seen that it doesn't hold other people back in the same way. And so , here's the secret behind the scenes. Like if you look at any of my videos or any of my conversations or any of my blog posts or anything, I'm speaking with such authority cuz I have the answers.

But, but I, I'm not speaking to you, I'm speaking to me because even though I know what I should do, and even though I know what the answers are, it doesn't quiet the voices that kind of keep me up late.

Zach Arend: Yeah. That's, that's powerful. Like that is the universal human experience. I haven't met anybody and, and as I get a coach, I, I get to work with a lot of people one on one and, and we go deep. And I haven't met a client yet that's saying like, No, I'm. Fear. Well, I don't know what that is. You know, like, Oh yeah, that, I used to have that, but no, no

Mark Drager: Yeah. Yeah. I figure I figured that out. Like, yeah, 10 years ago, fear and doubt used to slow me down, but. You know what, Actually I have, I have hit a point in my life where I didn't, where I was, so I was, I got so far ahead of fear and doubt that I didn't have it. But, but here's what I did. I paid off my mortgage.

My business was in a really comfortable place. My marriage was in a good place, and my kids were in a good place. And, and that worked for me for about eight to nine months before I got really bored and realized that I wasn't going anywhere. So, so I did crush fear and doubt, and I did get ahead. But what it meant was I wasn't putting myself in situations where I was growing or being challenged or had anything at risk, and I got really sad and depressed.

Cause I was like, I guess this is.

Zach Arend: And that's the, you know, call it what you want, that growth, value of growth or an entrepreneurial spirit. Right? I, I, I'm like, you is like, if I don't feel a little bit of fear, I, I, I'm, I've gotten to the point where I'm realizing, ooh, something's off. If I'm not feeling some of what Stephen Presfield calls resistance, right?

If I'm not feeling. I actually see it differently. I'm like, Oh, well maybe I'm playing smaller than I really am. Maybe there's more I can lean into because like learning to embrace the feeling. What do you think about that? Like learning to embrace the discomfort and, and seeing it as an indicator of growth and bringing your vision to life and all of.

Mark Drager: I think that's a great thing to do. You know, a big breakthrough for. Was when I was reading. I think Mark Manson's, The Subtle Art of Not Giving Enough. You know, I, I'm pretty sure it, I read a lot of books, so they all just like blend together and I really always wanna attribute who I'm reading at the time, but he talks about the fact that like, feelings aren't good or bad, right?

Like feelings are just feelings. They're just indicators. It can be angry, anger, and some bad, right? You can be jealous. Jealousy isn't bad, right? You can be extremely ecstatic and happy. That's also not good, right? Like it just is, it's it. Feelings are what is, and it's an indicator for us that we're either more in alignment or less in alignment, that we're making smart decisions globally or like macro or micro or not.

And so if you're constantly wound up and you're constantly anxious and you're constantly fearful and you're, and you're beating yourself up and all of those things, which I can rhyme off easily cause I live there most of the time, uh, then they're not good or bad, but they're an indicator of like, Hey, maybe there's some work you need to do or some things you need to figure.

And if you're constantly comfortable or, or hopeless or sad or whatever, pick whatever your, your, your feeling of choice is where you tend to live. And if you're constantly that it's just an indicator that you're out of alignment or you're not doing some things, or you are doing some things that you shouldn't be.

Zach Arend: Yeah. Yeah. No, I, I call that resonance. You're either in resonance or you're in dissonance and resonance. You, you know it because it's, it's true for you. And, and sometimes that's anger, sometimes that's sad. Like it's letting yourself experience things and see it as information. Because what we normally do is we put labels on it.

Like, Oh, I'm angry. Well then that I'm, I'm doing something wrong or I'm bad, or, and, and we pile on instead of just letting our. Stay curious with, well what, what am I angry about? What, what boundary is not being respected right now? What do I need that I'm like, get Emotions are pretty important indicators of what we really need if we stay present with them, So, very good.

Really cool. Well, you alluded to it like kind of this idea of yeah, the fear and doubt hasn't gone away,

Mark Drager: I wish it would

Zach Arend: Right? Where you experiencing it the most right now in what you're.

Mark Drager: So I, I, I started a creative agency in 2000. I built it into a multimillion dollar business, and I, I think by a year, seven or eight, we crossed a little over a million dollars in, in annual revenue. But being a creative industry, being in a creative business, it's, it's one-offs. So we're producing two or 300 one-off projects per year.

Every single year we're, we're having to refill the funnel, right? So it's not like I, I could grow this recurring revenue base. I had some recurring clients. Every project was a project. Every dollar had to be sold year after year, after. And so some of it's predictable, but, but we got it up to a little over, well, a little over 2 million in revenue before Covid hit 24 full-time staff.

And having a seven figure being, being the key man in a creative business or creative industry, working on 20 or 30 projects at a time, two or 300 projects per year, and being the person where, where if everything, if something goes wrong, of course I'm the ceo, it's on me if things go right. Um, well, I mean, I feel very proud, but it's because of the team.

It was ne it never went right because of me. It went right because the team did a great job, but it also went wrong. It's my responsibility. And so just that pressure and that grind and that constant feeling like I'm building everyone's businesses, but my not my own. And it just, it just wore me out. And so Covid provided some really great coverage for me, in fact, because it gave me the opportunity when, when the pan, when the pandemic hit and lockdown hit through March, April, and May, I was actually the happiest and freest I ever felt in my.

Which is very weird because at the same time it's like the world is burning down around us, but it's because there was no expectations on me. Right. My, my clients are paused. All projects we had, we had ton like, like, I don't know what it was, six or $700,000 in work immediately got put on hold and my team's all looking at me and I'm like, I don't know what we're doing.

We're just on. It gave me coverage and as the world started to open up through June and through July and August of 2020, my anxiety levels arose. The PTSD of like the three month sabbatical that I had where I felt. Actually good and calm and, and not like under pressure and not on demand. And, and no one, no one was pulling me in a million different directions.

It all started, that all disappeared and the old marks started coming back the old life, and I was so uncomfortable with it, and I hated it so much, and I was having panic attacks on the weekends. Thinking about the week ahead, I would've panic attacks. I was like, This isn't right. This isn't, I didn't build this business for this.

And then I, it gave me, it gave me pause to kind of say, Well, what was it about when everyone else is freaking out and the world is burning down around me and the expectations are lifted off my shoulders, why did I find that freeing? And yet, when everyone in my life is excited to go back to normal, right?

Getting back together with friends, I didn't really wanna do that. Seeing family. I didn't wanna do that. Working with my clients, great people, amazing people, amazing businesses. I didn't wanna, And now that I look back, I realize, I think I just was super burnt out and, and I needed a bit of a pause, but, but what I'm excited about now and at the same time absolutely terrified about is, can I do this again?

Zach Arend: Yeah, pause. Pause for a moment cuz I wanted to ask. If I'm hearing you right, like the pandemic, I had a similar experience. My, everything just got quiet and I was going on walks with my, I had a little month old baby girl and so I'd take her on walks around the neighborhood like around three o'clock and I all, I remember the sidewalk chalk cuz all these families were home and everybody, and I just like,

Mark Drager: putting notes on the ground and

Zach Arend: like picture, like, I'm like, this is like nobody has slowed down like this.

Probably our lifetime. And so it was just this kind of, I just, it was a surreal, beautiful moment. And I, I, I got a sense of that same piece that you had, like, there's just like the world stopped and it's like, I could take a breath. You, it sounds similar for you. And, but then when it turned back on and that, when you said, when you said burnout, I'm like, well, you just had like several, well, a period of time of. Of peace, you know, And so where'd the burnout come from? And I'm like, I wonder if it was just kind of snapping right back into

Mark Drager: Yeah.

Zach Arend: the old way. And, and, but, but knowing enough of the contrast of what things could be. Like I was actually working out this morning with my trainer and we were just talking about like, now that I'm consistent, I don't wanna break the chain.

I want to keep coming. He's like, Yeah. And the other thing is, you're gonna feel so terrible if you stop going to the gym. You're gonna want to go back, like you now know what health feels like. The actually having vitality and energy. So I kind of, I'm just curious and wanted to explore that a little bit.

Like now you know what things could be and it makes all the stuff that used to be all the more. I don't want this anymore. Has that been real for you? Yeah,

Mark Drager: It, it, it, it has, So through 2020 I did a lot of pausing and, and culling and, and I had to make some really hard decisions. You know, we had, we. Again, before the pandemic hit, we were a multi-million dollar company and then everything gets put on hold. So as my team, as people start to leave my team, cause I didn't really have a lot of direction, I just didn't replace them.

So our team shrunk, our client base shrunk work got put on hold. We had a lot of cash on hand. We were lucky enough to, to be operating for, you know, 14 years at that point. So I had a lot of cash on hand and a lot of runway. But it was the first time where I realized like, hey, I don't wanna keep doing the thing that I've been.

But it took me all the way until April, 2021 to actually make that decision. So think about that. March, 2020, we shut down through the spring. I feel free through the summer. I start to not feel free anymore and, and get panicky and, and I have to give clients money back. We can no longer, you know, I had one client who we were sitting on like a $400,000 project and we, and at that point we couldn't deliver the project profitably.

If they forced us to move forward with it, it would've bankrupted the. For a whole bunch of logistical reasons, but I had to like go back to the client and say, I need to give you this money back. That took me, it took me two months to figure out how to, how to broach that subject with them and then, and then just, just, anyway, it took all the way till April of 2021 for me to admit to myself and my wife and my, and in a few key people on my team that's just like, I just can't keep doing this.

I don't, I don't want to, I don't wanna do it. I can't do it. I think I'm. And it took from the spring of 21 all the way to the fall of 21 for me to figure out, Oh wait, I actually still love this. I still like, I, I, it's very easy to burn everything to the ground because you hit a point of just wanting to let go to the point where you're like, I just wanna burn everything to the ground.

And it's really great to make this big sudden change. We end up throwing the baby out with the bath water. You end up throwing out all the stuff that you actually love, the stuff that you're good at, the stuff that you're. And so it, so part of me is like, Man, I wish I could have done this quicker, but, but let's do some math here.

Right? Like, it took me 2020 to go through these ups and downs. It took me all the way to the spring of 21 to decide I just can't keep, do living this way anymore. And it took me to the fall to realize, wait a minute, there's still some of the stuff I love. And then it took me all the way till this spring, spring of 22 to figure out what this could look like.

And then from spring of 22 to now when we're speak. It's like trying to figure out how to rebuild.

Zach Arend: Pause really quick cause I'm, What I'm curious about is, was this just a inner journey you went on to get clarity and it just needed, or did you have conversations, coaches, friends, mentors, Like how did you find some of that clarity and sift through that? Cuz you sifted through a lot it sounds like. Did you do all that on your own or how'd you, how'd you get where you.

Mark Drager: I have a really good circle of peers, and I call them peers cuz they're friends, but they're, they're not like I, it's not like the people that my wife and I hang out with, with the kids I'm talking about like other business owners where they're in similar places to where I'm at. And it's not quite a mastermind group, but it's also not quite as informal as just being friends.

I have a few people where, where I get together with them for a call every second Friday of the month. And there's only two people, like I've been part of big groups. It's only me and these other two people. And we get together and when, you know, one of the guys was from the UK last year and he flew into Tampa for an event.

He said, Hey, I'm gonna be in Tampa. So I, I did what I normally don't do. I would normally be at home and say, Good job. And said I was at, I'll come down to Tampa with you and hang out for a few days. And I hung out with him and I hung out with my other friend. And it was then that they pulled me aside and they said, Mark, I'm really worried about you.

And they, they said, You didn't ask for any of this stuff, but here's what I'm worried about. Here's what I'm seeing. Here's what I need. And I listened. I listened, and I would ask them for help. And so I have a few of these relationships in my life. I just started another one with someone that you mentioned on that opening list of like people I've shared the stage.

We're literally a few weeks ago, we were texting back and forth and he said, Hey, I like you. I said, And I like you too, . He said, He said, He said, Yeah. I was like, We're bro buddies? And he's like, Hey, I like you. And I was like, I like you. And he's like, Hey, I'm thinking I don't have anyone to help. Keep me accountable.

Maybe we can do something. And I just said, yes. Like, I don't know what it looked like. And so now somehow, like I've never had an accountability partner before. Now I've an accountability partner. But so, so first layer of it was like being open, asking for help, having a, seeking out a few relationships.

That are not business relationships for business. They're simply there for me to be, to, to drop my guard around. That's first, second, a lot of reading a lot of books. I'm naturally curious. I love this stuff. So I explore those things. The third thing that, that I've done is the podcast. You know, we do hard things.

I'm the host of, of, of a podcast in a show, and, and frankly like it's no secret, right? Like most of us do this podcast. Some people do podcasts for business development reasons or lead gen. Most of us do it just cuz we wanna surround ourselves with awesome people and, and learn from them. So, so that's helped because the other thing is the people that I pick to be on the podcast often they've written books or they're, or they're, or they have big platforms.

I consume a lot of their content and preparation for the conversation I'm about to have. So I have to like, learn all of this stuff in order to then be ready to have a deeper conversation with them. So it forces me to be around them and then I get to pick their brains. I get to be. Hey, you know, so, So if anyone wants to know about this story arc, like if you literally just go back through past episodes of we do Hard things like, like go back to, you know, May or June of 2021 when I would've been recording that, when I was struggling with this, and you'll see that the conversations I'm asking and the questions I'm asking, if you go back and look through what I just shared, you'll see that I'm very selfishly asking about courage because I was worried about shutting down my. Or you'll see that I'm asking about like living with regrets because I'm, because I'm worried that if I don't make a change, I'm gonna do that. Or, or asking like, Hey, when you make this sudden change in your career, how did you support yourself? How did you earn a living? Like, where did this money come from?

Because I'm wondering, Hey, if I don't have an agency and I'm not doing this anymore, how am I gonna support my family? And so that, that those three things helped me.

Zach Arend: Yeah. Wow. And I don't know if you've experienced this, but I've. You know, on, on outside looking in, you probably back when you're going through that probably look like a success. Like, wow, I, how, how did you do what you did? I wanna do what you did. And you're probably internally kind of like, I don't know if I want all this anymore.

And it's, I've noticed that it can be hard to share that with people. And so you get, you become very alone and very isolated in that, that, So to hear you say, I, I went to Tampa and I kind of opened up and allow, allowed other people to see me and invited perspectives. The books applied.

Mark Drager: The conversation I had with Steven, I can remember it. I, I can remember where I'm sitting. I can remember the moment. It, he, he was literally like, Mark, me and this other guy were talking about you at the bar last night. And immediately, like, like in my chest, like, kinda like when you get called to the principal's office when your parents are like, We need to talk to you.

Like immediately I'm like, you're talking about me. Like, like, like what? Like. And then he just like, This is what I need to do. And, and I realized, you know, in that moment that, you know, I was never really close with my dad. Like, I know this isn't Sarah's therapy session and whatnot, but I was never really that close with my dad and I never really had a father figure in my life other than my grandfather who has just showed me, like my grandfather taught me what hard work and stoicism and just like doc complaining and just getting on with it's great.

But what I realized, these men, mainly men in my life that I've surrounded myself with are in fact pseudo father figures to me. And they, they, they if, if I'm honest with them, but at the same time, like I can't just be standing around complaining all the time, right? So they see the other side, they see the drive, they see the desire, they see the hard work, they see all these things I'm doing on the back end.

But, but if I allow them, if I allow them in, and I, and I, they always have a thoughtful perspective and. Frankly, it's just like somehow looking back now, I realize like, Oh, these are just kind of guys who are 10 or 15 years older than me. They all are a little bit further ahead of me, and they're all kind of like the, they, they replace, I guess the questions that I should be asking my dad or the guidance I should be getting from the male role model in my life.

They're just kind of doing that for me, and as soon as I realized that I also didn't fight it quite as much, it was just like, I'm going to accept whatever it is you see in me, like you see. If you're saying something, you're noticing something, I'm just gonna go ahead and accept it as truth.

Zach Arend: Yeah. Oftentimes we're the last to see, see that greatness or that strength that

Mark Drager: too many years fighting it though too. People would like wanna give me advice and I would give 'em all the reasons why and all the excuses. And finally it's like, okay, I'm just gonna accept what you're saying is truth and explore it and see what happens.

Zach Arend: Yeah. Cool. Really cool. So what, so now you're kind of, well, probably never arrived, you're never fully on the other side, but you're on the other side of some of this. What's been the greatest insight for you? You know, looking back like this is, this is where I ended up and it's made all the difference.

Mark Drager: Okay, so first I had to realize that no one was gonna do this work for me. I spent, I spent too many years pre covid, pre pre pandemic, still unhappy. I, I, I could, I would go back. I did this during the break, like during that pandemic, and I went back and read emails cause I would send myself notes and emails and I'm reading emails from 20 12, 20 13, 20 15.

Same themes, same challenges, same questions, never fixing it. Kind of wondering when someone would come along, recognize my genius and my potential and figure these things out for me. No one's gonna do that. So I had to recognize that. The second thing I had to realize was like I was always so focused on my business.

That I didn't realize it was this moment of realizing like, I am the product and you can replace product with every word you want, but, but because I'm in, I'm a business guy and I'm an entrepreneur, I think of like products and services and offers and things we can do and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I, I spent a lot of time and a lot of money perfecting these things and making them better to drive more value for my clients.

Right? Like you're a coach, you probably want your coaching program. To be the most amazing thing possible. So as you learn things, you're tweaking and you're changing, and you're making it better. And you wanna be better than the competition and like you're just constantly working and investing and allowing other people in to make whatever it is that you sell, offer, whatever the best thing possible.

And that's what I focused on. And then as soon as I realized I am the product of my life, like, let's, let's, let's explode out to a view of me from birth to 90 or a hundred. Taking the time to slow down and figure some of this stuff out, not only serves me today or tomorrow, but it's gonna make me better when I'm 50.

It's gonna make me better, hopefully when I'm 60 and 70, like God willing all of those years ahead of me. But, but if I put as much time and effort and, and resources and money and outside perspective into me that I put into my products and services as a company to try and sell. That's not only gonna serve me forever, as long as I'm conscious it will serve me, but it's also gonna help it.

It's worth the time. It's worth the investment. It's worth the slow down. You understand what I.

Zach Arend: Oh yeah, I, I do, I, you know, for the long part of my life, like I spent so much time. Trying to live up to some ideal image. I thought I ought to be, you know, based on through my client's eyes or through the industry. And, and I'd look out there, what is everybody doing? And I'd compare and, and I just constant, like this hamster wheel, like just running hard at all this stuff and. Yeah, there's a shift because as soon as I slowed down and I got clear on my own personal story, you know, some of those defining moments, which I know you've done that work, right? Like why am I the way I am? Why is this so important to me, and what stories shaped who I am today? And I learned to tell those stories.

I let those inform the work I do. And I slowed way down. Like it just, And what happened was I no longer was chasing after my dream. It was almost like the dream started chasing me. Like opportunities just attracted themselves to me just because who I was being. That's what I'm hearing from you.

Mark Drager: Yeah, you, you have to, when you're on the hamster wheel, you don't have any space or any room cause you have to keep on top of everything and stay on top of everything. And when, you know, seven figure payroll, having to replace the business all the time meant taking on projects I didn't really wanna take on for people.

I didn't really wanna take on just to keep, just to keep the machine fed

Zach Arend: And that takes courage to get to the root issue there. Right? Cause it's, that's,

Mark Drager: Well, and, and this is where it's like I wanted to keep tweaking and changing year after year. Like how do we make it, how do we fix it? How do we get it better? And it was only when I decided that I was gonna let go of everything and burn it all to the ground, that I felt free enough to have the space to realize there's some of this I still love.

Zach Arend: Yeah.

Mark Drager: There's some of these things that I'm really, really good at. Oh, You know what? I can forgive myself for the mistakes that I've made. Cuz guess what? When I started the agency the first time, Phantom Media, I was 23. I had never worked at an agency and yet I built an agency. So that's not great. I, I made whatever I thought at the time was the best decision to make, but often when it was no longer a good decision, So I hired amazing people.

But when they were no longer plugged into the culture, I didn't have the courage to like res.

Zach Arend: Yeah.

Mark Drager: I knew we had operational challenges, but I never made the investments to fix the operational

Zach Arend: What, what, what was the fear behind that? What were you afraid, What were you afraid of in that moment that you put off the restructuring? You, You didn't, you avoided it for a while. I'm willing to bet. Like you didn't, you didn't just attack it head on it. You probably spent a year just wrestling with it.

What, what was, what was the fear that kept you in that pattern, do you think?

Mark Drager: If I'm, if I used to say to people all the time, If I could replace my salary, I would, I would change everything in an instant. And so it was just like keeping up, keeping up with expenses.

Zach Arend: Yeah, there's kind of a fear of going backwards, starting over.

Mark Drager: Yeah. And, and so, Full circle now when you said, Hey, right now, what are you, what's keeping up at night? Or what are you most worried about? Right. All of that stuff is backstory for what's happening right now is, Okay, cool. So two years ago we decide, or a year ago I decided to burn the place to the ground.

And last October or September I decide, okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna keep it. And in the spring we figure out what we're gonna offer and we spend the last six months finding market fit and restructuring and doing all this. That's, that's a lot of runway man, like from pandemic to today for our, our revenue to be so much lower than it was our expenses to be lower, but still burning through cash.

What I'm most uncomfortable with and what I'm most worried about is like, can I do this again? I like, I had a lot of energy in my twenties. I worked really, really hard. I wasn't there for a lot. I worked so hard and so much that I can remember one time my. Who was three or four at the time. Came to my bedside table one morning when I got in at like three or four in the morning and was getting up at 8:00 AM to get back to work.

And I saw her and she smiled at me and I started crying cause I was so tired. And she said, she's like, Why are you crying, daddy? And I was like, because I, I gotta go back to work. And, and I love you, but I don't know, just got, I gotta go back to work, I guess. Like just keep on top of everything. Stay on top of.

Zach Arend: Well,

Mark Drager: When my, when my son was born, we have four kids. When my second son was born, I had to leave my wife at the hospital. Cause I had a big project that was due and, and I didn't have a team at the time. And it was like, it was 2008 during the recession. It was a $6,000 project, which was gonna just keep us afloat.

My wife just had our, our second child, our son, and about an hour or two after he was born, I was like, I gotta go. I had this project due on Tuesday.

Zach Arend: Yeah. Well I got a question for you cuz it's understandable that you don't want to go through that

Mark Drager: And, and I don't wanna do that all again. . So I'm worried, can you build an agency? Can you build a company not building it that way?

Zach Arend: Yeah, cuz you know, my question is like, well, what's leading you to believe that it has to be that way? Given that you're not the same, Mark that that start, right? You, you have all these lessons. So just, Yeah. I'm curious what's leading you to believe that that's the way it's gotta be?

Mark Drager: I know it doesn't have to be that way. I just hope to God that that's true.

Zach Arend: Yeah.

Mark Drager: So, so most of what I do is, is, is pretty faith-based now, you know, like, I don't mean that meaning like Christianity or religion, I mean like, like when I decided that I didn't wanna keep running Fanta the way that I had in that spring of 21, it was because of a few things.

I read the book, Five Regrets of the Dying by Bonnie. We an amazing book, but I read this book and I went, Okay, so she's telling me, and for people who don't know, she was, she was an end of, she's an Australian woman who worked with people at the end of their life for palliative care. So she would live in the home with an aging parent or, or aunt or uncle or grandparent or whatever it was.

But she got hired to live there for the last few weeks until, until people passed away, take care of them, be with them, listen. And so most nurses just do the nursing side, but, but Bonnie really connected with people and she noticed that people at their end of their life had the same five regrets, which is like, I wish I had lived more for me as opposed to others.

I wish I didn't work so hard, like yada, yada yada. And so I read that and I went, Okay, I'm in my late thirties. I don't wanna be in my eighties or nineties and have these regret. But here's the thing, just because people regret this at the end of their life doesn't mean it's actually true. Right? Just because you're at 80 or 90 and you go, Man, I wish I didn't work so hard.

Doesn't actually mean you shouldn't have worked so hard, right? Like there's there, what we don't realize is like is is just cuz you feel something. Doesn't mean it's true, right? . So it's cool you had that. I think I might have that regret cuz I'm working. I, I missed, you know, missed my daughter and missed this and missed all of these different things.

I think I'm going to regret that. So here's where faith comes into account. What if I just take it as truth? What if these people's regrets? These five regrets are the regrets I will have on my deathbed. And what if this is true? And what if it's not too late for me to change everyth? So that way I can start living my life now.

The way that those people on their death bed wish they had lived their lives, which means, what am I sacrificing? Vacations, Maybe, maybe the car, maybe money's a little bit tighter. Like I'm, I'm like, I'm gonna have to make some sacrifices to do it. But, but this is where I say like, I just kind of step out in faith.

I have faith that, that these people who are passing away are speaking truth and I should change my life with. I have faith that I don't have to build the business the way I did in the twenties cause I know other people haven't. But, but it, it doesn't mean that I don't have fears or doubts or it doesn't mean that it's like been proven to me yet that I can do it.

Zach Arend: Yeah, you want certainty, you want proof. You want to know that this will work, but the only way to certainty is through faith like you have to. You have to have that faith to, you know, looking in the rear view mirror, you're like, Yep, that was the best decision I ever you, but you never, from a starting position, you don't know.

It takes a hell of a lot of courage to choose to be intentional like that. I, I love that.

Mark Drager: Well, and the, and the, the biggest breakthrough that I've had over the last two years, that's really helped me. But again, it doesn't help with my fear and my doubt and the uncertainty that we all face in the future. I've spent a lot. Time digging into, into like, I don't even know what you'd call it, but it's, it's playing with time.

It has to do with personalities, it has to do with time. There's a few great authors, uh, Dr. Benjamin Hardy, who wrote Personalities and Permit is an amazing book. But, but here's what I did. I looked back, I looked backwards, and there's this thing, like if I asked you how you met your spouse or your partner, we were out at.

And we were having some, you know, great meal. We're getting to know each other. I naturally, in conversation, I, my wife usually asks her, I ask like, Hey, how did you meet? And I'd say, Nine times outta 10 people start by responding. It's kind of a funny story. Like it's, it's kind of this funny story. I was here doing this and then I went, visited this friend and she was a friend of, a friend.

Of a friend or like, or I, I, we were at work and this big project got canceled and this consultant came in and then we met like it's always. A funny story, how you met. It's happenstance. It's random. It's weird, isn't it?

Zach Arend: And, and when nobody's like, Well, I, I had a three year plan and I, you know, ex and

Mark Drager: I love that.

Zach Arend: Right. And then, yeah, it worked out exactly how I thought it would. No, same, probably same thing. Starting a business, growing a business.

Mark Drager: I've seen so many businesses where like, Like Steve Jobs, right? People love Steve Jobs story, right? They love his passion. They love his purpose. They love all of that stuff about Steve Jobs and Apple. But Apple only started making computers. Now they may have made computers anyway, but they only started making computers cuz they had made computer chips, processors.

And he tried to sell processors and the guy who tried to sell it to said I'd rather have a computer and Steve Jobs said I can make computers. And then he went to Steve Wosk and he said, Hey, how do we make a computer? That's the only reason they started building computers cuz someone didn't want the processors or the chips.

They wanted a computer. And he said, I can.

Zach Arend: Yeah, it was intuition. It was creativity. It was, And that's where what you're identifying is, I have a real issue with this. The whole hustle culture, the work hard. It's funny, every time I've really worked hard at something and really tried to will it to happen, it never hap it. I just ended up being exhausted.

But then it's like as soon as I let go, like my wife's a good example, as soon as I just kind of like, I don't know. I don't know when the right. I don't know. And then it's just like, she just appeared and it was it. It happened so fast. Six months we're married, you know?

Mark Drager: There's actually psychology behind why that

Zach Arend: Absolutely.

Mark Drager: so, so first of all, any time that you put a lot of mental effort into what you want, you're subconscious remembers all of those. And then as soon as you let go, you turn, you activate your RAs to be able to identify the opportunities or your reticular activating system.

Right? For I'm, I'm sure our listeners know about this, but if you buy a new car, you see that new car everywhere, right? Like, but you do all of the mental effort. You do all of the work, you let go of it, you free yourself up. It's the reason in the shower, while you're cutting the grass or doing the dishes, you come up with great ideas.

It's because it's because the subconscious can then identify or hone in on those things that you've been. Compensating for, but if you're always overthinking everything, there's no room for the, for the great things to bubble to the surface. But, but here's where I'm going with this. Looking back, it's the funny story.

Looking back, you know, I went to, I went to film school and then somehow when I graduated this random guy in the editing suite who needed help, I, I offered to help for a few days for free, and then he liked me, and a few weeks later, he got me my first job. And then that first job I ended up not liking. I hated.

And my manager knew I hated it. And that manager liked me enough, found a job posting for another thing, and then helped me with my resume. And he got me that job. And then that job was where I learned everything about internet marketing, everything about segmentation, everything about marketing research.

And then I started my own agency and it's like this weird winding path, right? Like when we're looking back, we can connect all the dots on our weird and winding path, but yet when we look forward, As you mentioned, you want that three year strategy. You want that plan. You want the milestones, you want the KPIs.

You wanna know it's gonna work. You don't wanna risk anything. You don't wanna make the investment unless it makes sense and you don't wanna waste time on anything. It's gotta be efficient and in that world, in that environment that I lived in, that I think most of us in business live in. We, we so tightly control everything and we soak tightly want.

We wanna know that it's gonna be, that it's, it's all going to be right and work and be efficient and not waste anything and not risk anything and not embarra. That's like where I'm most comfortable, I think most of us are. And yet it removes all of the opportunity for, for the beauty or the majesty or the amazing things of life to kind of have kind of funny stories going forward.

And so a big thing I've tried to do over the last two years and I've gotten really good at it, is letting go of all this stuff and just, just like trying things out. You know, I, I flew down to the reason I flew down to Tampa to hang out with some guys for a few. I would never have done that in the past because it didn't make business sense.

It didn't make sense for the investment. It didn't make sense for the time I wasn't gonna network with. I tried it out and guess what? I made a few friends and then I made a stronger connection. And then through that stronger connection, actually they invited me back in March to host the event that I flew down to.

I made like 20 grand to host an event, and then it led to led, led to more things and more thing like it's just life is uncontrollable. You can't control. There is no certainty and so I know that, and yet it makes me incredibly uncomfortable.

Zach Arend: yeah, yeah. I, I'm right there with you and I guess I've really found some peace and like staying in that uncomfortable space like that is, That is cuz I know the, I know the extremes. I know. Trying to control it all. That just leaves me feeling exhausted. At the end of the day, I don't really like who I am and, and just having a clear vision, knowing what you want to build, but then letting go enough to allow sounds, wooey, but allowing the universe or whatever you wanna call it, to kind of allow it to bring it to you.

Because like you said, kind of the cars, like you, you buy a new car and you see it all over the, in. When you know what you want, you have to let go and all those opportunities just start to show like, Oh, you know what? I think I should spend a little bit of time with that person. But if your head's down just trying to will it to happen, you miss all those opportunities that are oftentimes right in front of you and it is uncomfortable and I, it's changing your relationship with that discomfort, like changing.

That's where probably we feel the most fear is when we're letting go and. I, I'm learning to love that feeling. I love that because for me and, and a lot of my clients, that's where the magic starts to happen. And I, I'm hearing the same for you. It's like that's when the magic starts to happen.

Mark Drager: It brings a different energy to the work you do, you know? So, So as part of this journey, I was thinking through the summer of, of a few past clients, I had one of them in particular intimidated the hell out of me. Like, when we were working together, I always felt like I had to be on my toes. I didn't feel good enough.

Like just the way that they operated was, was so good and so strong and they intimidated me. And I was thinking about this and I was like, If, if you know most people who intimidate me like that, I never wanna talk to again. But I was like, if he intimidates me that much, he must do things a way that I don't know how to do.

He must know things that I don't. And if he's sitting across from me and he intimidates me, how much better would it be if he was sitting on the same side of the table as me? So I just reached out of him, out of the blue and I said, Hey, I don't know if you coach people. I dunno if you help people, maybe this is how people reach out to you Zach, right?

Like, but I was like, I, I don't know in what capacity or how, but I know that you do things differently than me. I know that I'm really uncomfortable revealing myself to you. Cause I feel. And I'm gonna go ahead and tell you that upfront and I'm gonna lean into it. So how do we do something together? And his very first suggestion, we're not even like working.

We're probably gonna partner together. We're probably gonna work on something together. But his very first suggestion is like, Hey Mark, this agency you've been running for all these years, you should rebrand it. You should rebrand it because, because you need a fresh start. You need a clean start. You need to approach this differently.

You need more excitement. And you can continue to try and fix and fix and fix and tweak and tweak and change it. But sometimes you just need like a fresh. And I was pretty resistant. I mean, you know, for, for four or five hours. I was pretty resistant about it. On a Sunday when we talked, he was thinking, No, like all of this stuff and all we've done and no, we can save it.

And as soon as I was like, you know what, what would a rebrand look like? And suddenly I can create anything I want. I can create any, look, any feel, any structure, any team, I can do anything. And in a possibilities when, when you're facing the future where it can be endless and optimistic. And it could be.

That one suggestion, that one tweak, that one change completely changed how I feel about the future. What we're building built instant momentum. Cause I'm like, Okay, if we're gonna do this, like it's gonna take time. We better, we better jump on it. We better go. And it unlocked. I feel completely free. I feel as free today rebuilding and recreating the most amazing branding and positioning and creative agency.

I feel as free today as I felt on that day in April in 2021 when I decided I didn't wanna do this anymore. Right? That moment where I decided I'm gonna burn it to the ground and I don't wanna do it anymore, and I felt finally free. I feel that free right now. Building, rebuilding what I'm building cuz it's a fresh start.

I just hope to hell I can pull it off.

Zach Arend: Yeah. Don't we all? But that's, that's, that's what makes life worth living. That's the mystery, That's the adventure is I don't know what's gonna happen next. And isn't it great? Isn't it fun? I love that. I, uh, you know, just as we kind of conclude today, What you just shared is so significant. Just learning to sit in that uncertainty, but do it on your terms.

Cause that's what I hear you saying. It's like, I'm doing this on my terms. I'm gonna take those five rules for the dying and I'm gonna say, Nope, I'm gonna, I'm just gonna believe that's true and we're gonna live life from that place. That's scary. But we'll see how it goes. And I, you know, I love your energy, so I kind of already have an idea of there's, there's a lot of creative things happening for.

That probably wouldn't otherwise have happened if you wouldn't have been willing to let go of the old, so,

Mark Drager: We, we wouldn't be having this conversation that we're having today if it wasn't for that, because I reached out to you

Zach Arend: Yeah,

Mark Drager: and I wouldn't, Old Mark wouldn't reach out to people

Zach Arend: right. No time for that. Right.

Mark Drager: Not only, no, not only, no time, no confidence. Like what? What would I say? What would I offer? Like that's, I just, Yeah, just the lack, the insecurity would be so strong that I wouldn't have reached out.

I was always the guy where I was like, I'm here if you need me, and if you need me, I'm gonna help like crazy. Like I'm just here if you need me. And I've realized that, you know what? Putting yourself out there, I've always been vulnerable. Putting yourself out there and asking. For something and being clear and, and saying, This is what we're working towards, and then working towards it.

That that takes courage.

Zach Arend: Yeah, and it also takes humility. I, because I think we often say humility is why we kind of play small and let me know how I could help, you know. I'm learning. It takes a whole hell of a lot more humility. Asking for help in that way, or just reaching out and saying, Hey, I, I have something to share. I, you know, Would you be want that, that.

I see humility as a card played so often that just keeps us in our comfort zone. And what I heard you just say is going the opposite direction, which is really cool. So I always like to ask that. You said you love reading, you've already mentioned several books. I need to check out the, the Dr. Ben Hardy book.

Personalities. I I read His Willpower Doesn't Work. Love that book.

Mark Drager: And then personalized and permanent and his latest book, which is Future, You Now is like

Zach Arend: Is it good?

Mark Drager: mind bending. I love, I'm lucky enough that I can text him cuz I know him, so, So I texted him while I was reading it, asking him questions and I'm like, Oh, I love this book.

Zach Arend: I remember when he had, well, he was just writing like crazy on medium.com and I was, Yeah. And then to see what he's done and yeah, I'm a fan of Ben Hardy for sure. In the context of this conversation, I. Is there a book that comes to mind that if anybody wants to go deeper in that, that maybe served you along your journey to kind of find some of these insights you shared with us today?

Is there a book that's coming to mind?

Mark Drager: There is, and, and keep in mind, I've read a lot of books and I tend to stack them, right? Like to me they like the breakthroughs are in order. So if you, if you said someone's challenged you this, I would give one prescribed approach versus another. But the book was written in the 1960s. You have to forgive the fact that it's written in the sixties.

So it's a little bit masculine. It's faith-based, but the book is called Psycho Cybernetics.

Zach Arend: Yeah.

Mark Drager: And I'm not sure if you're familiar with it or not, but, but there was, for our audience, there was a plastic surgeon who noticed that some of his patient. Would come in with a tremendous self con, self-confidence or lack of self-confidence.

They would, you know, maybe they were marred or, or scarred in war or maybe they were born with, with abnormally large ears or whatever. There was some kind of physical trait that caused them to feel less than everyone else and not succeed. So they would come to him and he would do plastic surgery. And again, in the sixties, plastic surgery was, was not really cosmetic.

It was more about like fixing something. And so he would, he would fix someone's ears, and then half of his, half of his patients had overnight a personality change. Their lack of confidence became confidence. Their, their lack of direction became direction. Their lack of motivation became motivation, and the other half didn't seem to have any change at all.

They still felt just as bad about them as ever before. And so he's like, This is weird. And so he started digging into some pretty old school and foundational. Psychology, and you might say why as a plastic surgeon writing about this, but it's an amazing book and it gave me a tremendous amount of hope in what we were talking about actually.

Even this idea of like overthinking something and then leaving it alone and then allowing it to rise to the surface comes 100%. I lifted that right out of that book.

Zach Arend: Mm-hmm. . That's a great book. Yeah, It's on my shelf somewhere. I love that book. It's been a while since I've read it. Well Mark, how can people learn more about your work and, and follow along in what you're.

Mark Drager: Well, if, I mean, I've talked a little bit about the agency. If you wanna check it out, just cuz you're curious like, well, what's he talking about? You'd head over to fanta.com. That's P H A N T a.com. If you're curious about the podcast I host, we do hard things. You can head over to YouTube at my channel at Mark Drager, or you can find it on any of the audio apps.

And if you wanna DM me or send me a note, ask me a question, whatever it might be, head over to Instagram. My handle is at Mark Drager.

Zach Arend: Very cool. Thanks, Mark.

Mark Drager: Thank you.

Zach Arend: Real quick, I have a question for you. What would it look and feel like for you to lead your team and build your business with more clarity, confidence, and conviction. That's why I want to invite you to the fully expressed leader. It's a full day workshop, virtual workshop, to learn how to lead.

From the inside out. This is for creatives, artists, executives, and right brain business owners who are ready to be the fully expressed leader they were meant to be. My promise to you is that by the end of this full day together, you're going to be able to identify the critical element in your business that you've been ignoring.

You're gonna know the secret to unleash the full potential of your. And start to see responsibility as a gift and not a burden you're gonna make leading from the inside out your new automatic default. What I love most about this day is I get to see the change in those that do the work. They come in exhausted and they leave energized.

Later on when they check back in with me, they tell me that it's like someone turned the lights on. What once felt impossible? Now feels inevitable. To learn more, go to www.createpurpose.net/workshop. This day is not about doing more. It's a way of being a way for you to shift your approach to building your business on your terms.

So go check it out, www.createpurpose.net/. Hopefully you really enjoyed this podcast episode, and my hope is you found it really inspirational and also most importantly, I hope you took away some practical things that you can start to do and apply in your own life. So finally, I have one small favorite to ask of you before you go wherever you get your podcast, whether that's Apple Music or Spotify.

If you enjoyed this episode, leave us a review. Love to hear your thoughts. Come find us on social media, share it on social media. It just really helps us get the word out, helps us grow our audience, so please do that. Thanks to my team, Ashley Bolden, who handles all the admin and Chris Skipper who handles all the music and editing of this podcast for more information on.

Purpose podcast, you can go to www.createpurpose.net and you can also follow me on Instagram at Zach dot errands. Please drop me a comment, reach out, drop me a dm. I'd love to hear from you and love to hear what's your taking away from these conversations? What would you like to hear more of? Do you have any guests that you would love to see come on the show?

And I'm always looking for great people to talk to and people with great stories that can inspire you. And so if you know of anybody, send 'em my way. Love to hear from. I'm your host, Zach Arend, and I'll see you in the next episode of the Create Purpose Podcast. Bye for now.